Developing Resiliency through Grief with Dr. Sonya Lutter

Grief and loss are a part of being human. While it may be a universal experience, many of us don’t know how to feel it for ourselves, let alone meet our loved ones in their grief. 

In today’s episode, co-hosts Sonya and Wes share a special conversation about grief, loss, and resiliency, and Sonya shares a vulnerable part of her story. Together they explore the impact of loss, and Sonya shares how she has made the conscious decision to work through her grief in a way that honors how it has impacted her, while not defining who she is. She further provides practical and tangible ways to come alongside our loved ones in grief.

This episode deals with the heartbreaking topic of suicide. If your story has been impacted by suicide, we hope that today’s episode meets you where you are and that in it, you might find connection and a shared hope. However, we encourage you to do what is best for you and, if needed, decide to skip it and return for our next episode. 

Additionally - if you or someone you love struggles with suicide ideations, we want to remind you of the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. 

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Transcript

Wes Brown  00:00

As a warning on the front end, today's episode deals with the heartbreaking topic of suicide. Your story has been impacted by suicide. We hope that today's episode meets you where you are, and that in it you might find connection and a shared hope. However, we encourage you to do what is best for you, and if needed, decide to skip it and return for our next episode. Additionally, if you or someone you love struggles with suicidal ideation, we want to remind you of the 988, suicide and crisis lifeline. I

Dr. Sonya Lutter  00:27

want to say the S word happens. It doesn't happen to me. I'm not special, and it happened to me. It happens to every single person. Something Something bad always happens. And today, I could probably come up with a dozen bad things that happened, but it's all about perception. And am I going to let that event define me and dictate what I do next? Or did stuff happen and I move on with my life? And the ability for people to do that is that's part of resiliency too, like learning that you're not special or unique. When bad stuff happens and we can't predict it and we can't maybe there's a reason for it. Maybe there's not a reason for it. I don't know. I'm not even going to debate that part of it, besides that, it happened, and now we gotta decide what to do with that information.

Wes Brown  01:29

Hello and welcome to analog advisor, where we explore how money shapes our lives, futures, families and communities. I'm Wes brown whether you're managing your own family's wealth we're just curious about the world of wealth management. This conversation will enlighten and inform. Thanks for being here and for tuning in. Today's episode is special one and a bit of a tone shift from our typical episodes. I asked my co host and friend Sonia to share a part of her story, of which I knew parts, but not the full depth. What I knew was that she'd experienced grief and loss like all of us, but what I learned and was struck by was how unique her resiliency was after great loss. I was so grateful for Sonia's willingness to share her story as she shares. None of us escape hard things. Difficulty and loss are a part of the human experience at any given time, most of us are grieving something, and more often than not, more than one something, Grief is a universal experience, but many of us don't know how to feel it for ourselves, let alone meet our loved ones in their grief, in telling her story, Sonya reflected that she hoped it would encourage you in your own life, provide each of us with some practical and tangible ways to come alongside our loved ones. I'm grateful for this conversation. Take good care friends. Let's get in a lot.

Wes Brown  02:53

Here we are. Here we are. I'm excited to hear your story. If you're willing to share it.

Dr. Sonya Lutter  02:57

Let's do it. So let's just back up 30 seconds, because you said something that is so crucial and really just a defining moment where you said, I'm actually nervous to talk about this. You didn't say the word nervous. I put it in your mouth. But I think this is a very common reaction when you deal with people who have experienced something big, and it's fine and it's normal, and just the ability to say those words out loud are huge for the person on the other side. So we have been talking about a number of client situations where people have went through big things, and even just in my life, I started this little study group with my husband last night, two nights ago and a bunch of couples, and hearing one of them and share his story was it really kind of took my breath away thinking, Well, I never would have guessed that about you, because he is seemingly functioning very well, and his life is going great, and then you see other people who are struggling really hard, and you know why they're struggling? And for me personally, this has been a really key learning moment of figuring out when people experience great loss. How do some people seem to survive and thrive, and other people seem to never crawl out of that dark hole? So I know that we want to talk about my story, and I will tell you about my story of great loss. And I would like to state at the beginning that while I'm happy to talk about it, and I think there's a lot of key lessons that people can learn from it, it also does not define who I am, and that's why I have not made this my passion, or like my speaking gig, is to go around talking about it, because I think that takes away from. Who I am as a person. So I have a really wonderful husband. I complain about him a lot on prior episodes,

05:11

I don't remember that

Dr. Sonya Lutter  05:15

at all, and he's been a really great force in my life. But what a lot of people don't realize is I was married for 13 years. 13 years isn't that amazing? Like when you look at me, I know it's hard to imagine that I was married for 13 years prior to that, and my husband, first husband, died by suicide. And for people to think that I was once married before their immediate reaction is, Oh, she got a divorce. I think for a lot of people, knowing that I am a widow makes it weird to talk to me, and yet, I don't know that a lot of people would guess that about me, because of the ability to survive and thrive past such a situation, and this conversation has been weighing on me a lot, and as I've thought through some of the key moments that have really been impactful for me, as I went through that situation, kind of backing up a little bit the circumstances around it where my I had a two year old, he had just had a birthday one month before, and I had a six month old. Oh, wow. And my six month old was very colicky. So for all the parents out there struggling with a colicky baby, I hear you because that is so challenging to have a baby who will not sleep, will not eat. You couldn't lay him down at all. He was fussy, and we could not figure out why he wouldn't sleep or eat or lay down or anything. And as you might imagine, this resulted in a lot of sleepless nights, and it it was a very challenging time. My former husband had just found out that he was not going to be reappointed in his position for the upcoming year, so he had a few months before he wasn't going to have a job anymore. And it was, there was a lot going on, and I had a job to where I always had an administrative type appointment, and I was gone a lot, and it seemed like things were going really well from the outside, like, Oh, you have a two year old and a six month old. Life is great. You have a great job, but it's never quite as it seems. And you might imagine that you get a lot of pity looks from that. So you feeling nervous is very normal, and yet the next reaction after that is people tend to be like, Oh, I'm so sorry for you. And this must be so horrible, and that was really, really hard to not be able to walk out of my house and feel like people were having a pity party for me, and I remember the funeral, and the church was packed full, and I didn't want to be in the church when people were coming in, so I was in a little side room, and I wasn't even sure if I was going to Come out of the room, and I did, and I didn't look at anybody. It's towards the front of the church. I came out, and I sat down in the front pew, and I didn't look around until almost the end, because I didn't want those pathetic looks given to me. How are you possibly going to survive past that is what it felt like. And I turned around, and my uncle was sitting back there, and his uncle that I'm not particularly close with, but when I was a child, I was we spent a lot of time in his house. And I looked back and he just shrugged his shoulders like, such as life kind of thing. And I was like, You are right? Like, this doesn't need to be Woe is me. Life is over for me. Like, that was a really bad thing that happened, and yet here we are. We don't know why. We don't know what's coming next,

09:37

but here we go.

Dr. Sonya Lutter  09:41

And so that was really, that was huge, that moment, and somehow or another, people showed up that I don't even know how they found out that he had died, and my best friend. I'm from college. Was there. She just showed up at my house. I'm like, like, the whole thing is just so bizarre in the moment, because you don't, you don't know all of the little things that go on around you. And having her there was really nice. Again, two year old, six month old. Neither one of them are sleeping all night. And for her to show up and be like, Why don't you just go sleep? I was like, Okay, I trust you to make sure that the children are okay. I will go sleep and just little things like that that were so big and the natural thing for people, all people, I'm not blaming anyone for this whatsoever, is they like to tell you their stories, and it's their stories about the person they knew who died, or what the person who died meant to them. And it's all about them the person telling the story. It's their way of relating. Yeah, it's a way of relating, and it's totally natural. So if you do this, you're kind of like every other person, and yet being on the other side that was so unhelpful and frankly, just frustrating, because like, okay, here I go. I need to listen to somebody else's story yet again, and one of my most chatty friends called, and she's like, can I come over tonight? I can't do this again. But then, of course, like, Sure, go ahead. You go ahead and come over and I'll listen to your story. And she came, and she just sat, and that was the only time I have ever seen her just sit there and be with me, and she's like, do you want to go take a shower? I know some of these things seem really silly, but in the moment, I was like, yes, that would be amazing to take a shower and not have to listen for anything else while I am taking a shower, like just those tiny little things that don't occur to the normal person, and again, another that was just such a pivotal moment to see empathy in action and all of these situations that people were able to take their own perspective and try To broaden it the best they could nobody, nobody's experience is comparable. There were a lot of parallel stories to mine that I cannot possibly understand. I cannot possibly understand his parents perspective. I cannot possibly understand his sister's perspective. Those are very real important stories for other people. And for me, I think one of the key lessons I learned was empathetic communication is about trying to imagine all of those stories happening at the exact same time, and those are all very real stories, all true stories, and yet my story is what I am in charge of, and that is the only thing that I am in charge of. And I cried a lot. And really, I can tell you the exact moment I stopped crying, I was sitting there rocking my two year old, and he looks up at my new set, and I'm crying for just because, and he reaches up and he wipes the tears away from my eyes, my two year old. And I was like, This is not okay, and if I keep acting this way in front of him, he's going to have to become an adult at the age of two like that's completely ludicrous to even think about. And so for me, the ability to see his story and what all this was for him and and my story was still true, and I could still cry when I'm not around him, but for me, that was a key moment of I need to get my life together and choose my path, because

14:07

it was impacting him. There

Dr. Sonya Lutter  14:11

are a lot of other lessons that I learned, but I'll let you ask me some questions

14:18

that's that's a lot.

Dr. Sonya Lutter  14:19

It is a lot, and what a great response, right? Like everybody deals with a lot, and we cannot possibly know this about a person. There are a lot of the listeners who know this story about me, but a lot of people don't. And how would you ever know that? Unless you asked a person how they're doing,

14:40

what they're thinking about, and being

Dr. Sonya Lutter  14:45

fully present with another human. It's such a rare gift that we don't get

14:52

very often and

Dr. Sonya Lutter  14:55

and it's nice just to be able to sit and be with a person. Yeah, I agree.

Wes Brown  15:01

You know, obviously you and I talked very specifically about talking about this, yep, and I'm curious, when do you, if you do, when do you

15:11

ever share the story when people ask

Dr. Sonya Lutter  15:18

and and I am very happy to talk about it, and ironically, the anniversary day was yesterday. And so it was weird for me, for you to ask about talking about this at that precise timing. And yet, a lot of people do have questions around this time of year because the season reminds them of it, the things that are going around on around town, the weather changes, birthdays, like everything, is just a constant reminder at this time of year. And even for my children, my two year old has memories. I don't know if he has memories of my former husband, or does he have memories of me telling him stories. And whenever he has questions, I always answer those. Whenever my friends have questions, I always answer those. And I think it is very healthy to talk about bad experiences, no matter what the bad experience is. And I think that's what I I want to emphasize. And one of the reasons why you don't talk about it just unprompted, because I guarantee every single person is dealing with something, and most battles are silent, and we cannot possibly understand the system in which a person is surviving and what their daily struggles are, what their chronic struggles are. And

16:58

I think that's maybe why we don't

Dr. Sonya Lutter  16:59

ask questions as much as maybe we should, because we think that we're the only people struggling, when in reality, there's lots of people. Everyone is struggling with something

Wes Brown  17:10

so early on, when you and I first met, you sent me a blog post from your website, I think, or somewhere, I haven't known any of these details to this point. In fact, when I brought it up, as you know, I didn't actually know that this was the month or the season or anything like that. So that's really interesting. But I'm curious, in hindsight, why you shared that blog post. Yeah,

Dr. Sonya Lutter  17:37

talking about her takes the power out of it, so the more that you can talk about the bad things, it does release something for yourself. I have no idea how many people actually read my blogs, but at least one person did, and so that's helpful, just to get it off of my chest into a different space, and it's not forcing people into listening to something, you know? I think that part of I think the blog post you're talking about is the one where I also talk about the adoption, yeah, and for me, why that is so important. So I have remarried, and people were super critical, and my husband and I laugh about it sometimes that he should have ran away, and his friends told him that he should have run away. Those are good friends. They really should have told you to run away, and we are able to have these really tough and kind of weird conversations. We talk about death a lot, and he stepped in at a moment when I was very volatile, and he was a stable force, and he had not been around kids a lot, and when I let him meet my children, they were still quite young, and he he jumped right in, and he started caring for them. And there was one day where the older one walks up to him, and he's probably three at this point, and tugs on his pants, you know, just a little guy, and he looks up and he says, are you my dad? And it was like, I know. And Dylan didn't know that I was listening to this conversation. I was around the corner to where I wasn't seen. I was like, Oh my gosh. Like, what is this guy gonna do? Like, we're not super serious, like, pretty serious, but we weren't engaged. Or, Wow, that's a tough question. And he looks down and he says, Do you want me to be your dad? I. And my son says, yeah, he's like, okay,

20:04

and that was that.

Dr. Sonya Lutter  20:07

And for me, that was more important than anything he could have done for me was to know that he was willing to be that person that he didn't have to be for two boys, and then he did adopt them after we got married, and weirdly enough, the court required the boys

20:33

to be there for the adoption.

Dr. Sonya Lutter  20:35

I was like, That seems kind of silly. Like, what are they gonna have to say? They're so little. But away we went, and they were asking why it was that we were going to the courthouse. And, I mean, it's difficult courthouse, right? It's like, very formal. You have to go through security. The guards are there with the guns in their pocket. Like, the whole bit could be kind of scary. They thought it was amazingly fun. Why do we have to be here? And I said, because they're going to ask you if you want dad to be your dad, and they're like, Oh, why would we do that? He's already our dad. And for them, this was just such a foreign concept. And then they called Dylan up to the stands first, and they said, do you understand that this is a permanent and irrevocable decision? And our attorney didn't warn us that that was the exact language that was going to be used. And without hesitation, he says, Yes. And what greater commitment is there than that? Right there that sure we think that we will get married and we will stay married forever, and we say that that is a permanent, lifelong decision, but to know that it's permanent and irrevocable, that's crazy, right? Like, almost everything in life is revocable. I can hardly think of anything

22:07

that is irrevocable, not wild,

Dr. Sonya Lutter  22:12

like even having a child, one could say, could be revocable if you decide to give the child up for adoption.

22:21

This is the opposite. It's kind of amazing. It

Dr. Sonya Lutter  22:23

is kind of amazing, isn't it? Like if you just stop and ponder the gravity of that, and it didn't even hesitate one moment, that

22:31

was big. Good, man. Yep,

Dr. Sonya Lutter  22:35

I complain about it.

Wes Brown  22:37

I really don't think you do as much as you think.

Dr. Sonya Lutter  22:41

Maybe it's just the stories in my head.

Wes Brown  22:45

I'm curious, as you kind of went through that experience, you certainly had financial decisions you had to make, and I think decisions generally would be hard to make, it in a time like that. Yeah, never mind. I mean, I would imagine, and this is one of the things you and I were talking about earlier, was like, and this has been happening recently. You know, when we go through, I've been it's been happening recently with clients. When we go through something that is life altering, financial decisions just seem so unimportant. Yeah, obviously they are important. And that's just speaks to how nuanced money is, right? It's just, it's like, not important, but it is because all these other things rub up against it, or it influences all these other things. But I'm curious for you, in that experience, in that time, how did you make decisions and and how did you make financial decisions? Well,

Dr. Sonya Lutter  23:40

I am a CFP professional, so I'm gonna think I've got my stuff together. I can do this all very rational. And in that moment, it's all the rationality goes out the window. And again, I think some people are critical, but empathy and compassion helps you understand that I needed to do what's best for me in a particular situation, and for me that meds, we had a small life insurance policy, and I got rid of the money as fast as it came into my account. It was it was back out. And of course, that wasn't the purpose of the life insurance. It was to help to support me for multiple years past that, and I didn't want it. I did not want to. I didn't want the lingering responsibility. It felt like money that wasn't mine to be had. So I set up multiple scholarship funds and gave some to our church, and it was basically gone, like overnight. And sometimes there is, I don't know that I would call it regret, but thoughts of, Oh, I could. Have been more planful, and now, nine years later, I am probably in a good mental space. I could do something really amazing with that money, maybe at a grander scale. And maybe some of that still is setting up the scholarship funds, and maybe some of that is still giving to good causes, but yet, maybe I could have been more planful about it. And yet we can't live in the could haves and should haves and might haves and everything else, because I did what was right for me in that moment, and I feel really good about it, and financially, it was a really stupid decision from a purely rational financial decision, it probably was not the best call. I could have lost my job. I didn't go to work for three months, right? There's a lot of things that could have happened, and yet it didn't. And there's a tendency to dwell upon the could haves and the should haves, and yet every day keeps coming, and the kudos and should haves don't really matter, because tonight the sun will go down, and tomorrow the sun will come back up, and away we go. And the kudos and the should haves don't really matter. So, I mean, that was definitely one decision that was maybe questionable to a person in a professional role in that point in time. I also, within three months, sold my house and bought a brand new house, and rates were way different then. But can you imagine doing that in like within the last couple of years, that would have been absolutely insane at the time. That was probably okay financially, I lost money, for sure, in the whole bit, but the lost money was totally worth it in the emotional stability that it provided.

Wes Brown  27:04

How did it provide emotional stability? Because

Dr. Sonya Lutter  27:07

I knew that from that moment, I was in charge of what I did, and it's almost that pressure of I need to pull myself together, because it's me and it's me supporting my two kids. And surprise, I'm quite independent, and for me, that need to show that I was independent and I didn't need the pity and I didn't need the handouts that I could do it by myself.

Wes Brown  27:42

I mean, I hear what you're saying objectively, maybe not the best decision. I still, I just don't know if I think it depends on how you measure the value of that decision. You know, I wonder too, if the stability, some of the stability, came from and again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, so you tell me if you think this could have been true, came from being rid of it, meaning it was like one less thing you had to worry about.

Dr. Sonya Lutter  28:08

Yeah, there were no more decisions to make about it. You

Wes Brown  28:11

just did it, and then you move then you move on. And yeah, I don't know,

Dr. Sonya Lutter  28:14

yeah, I do think that is accurate. Besides for the moving on part, there are a lot of misguided assumptions about grief and stages people go through, which doesn't actually have a lot of science to back that up. And then this moment of acceptance we're moving on. And for people you know who are struggling with a loss of whatever sort, and it doesn't have to be a death, right? Like it could be a divorce, it could be a job loss, it could be a move. Like there's all sorts of losses, and I don't know that any of them are harder or easier than the other ones, but when people have those key turning points in their life, I don't know that we ever move on. It's always there. And there's always triggering moments. There's always memories, there's always, as much as I try not to live in the could haves and should haves. They're always there underneath, well, if only this or only that, and so I don't know that people ever really move on from any event in their life, the good or

Wes Brown  29:29

the bad. You mentioned that people tried to, and it's a common thing, people try to relate, so they share their story, and it turns the focus on themselves. And you also shared about you how much you appreciated people just being with you. Are there other things that you wish people did or said that would have made it easier for you? Are there other things that people did do or say that that made it easier for you? Yeah,

Dr. Sonya Lutter  29:55

I had a friend i. I really want to say people's names so they know how important this is, but they'll know they can self identify themselves. And this friend brought over this most amazing, huge basket, like the size of my torso sized basket, just stuffed full of stuff. And it was from all of my marriage and family therapy colleagues from those days, and they had all put various little things in there, and most of it was for the kids. And it was things to keep them entertained, like little toys or really soft blankets, or the basket itself. It was a huge basket so they could both crawl in there. And I mean, really, the basket itself was probably the most exciting part of that whole thing, but, but when he came and he dropped it off, he's we didn't he didn't pity me. He was like, Mel was kind of crappy, and he's like, and it wasn't talking about the event itself. It was talking about that exact present moment and what I was doing that day, and it really helped shift the focus away from dwelling upon negativity and the present moment and how there was positivity and hope for the future. In regards to hope, another friend sent me a necklace, and it had the Bible verse, Jeremiah, 2911, on it. And I'll say it briefly, even if you don't subscribe to this, it's the meaning itself is really impactful. And it says, For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD plans to prosper you and not harm you. And for me, that was so crucial in that moment. I don't even think that there was anything else in her card, just this necklace, and that's it. And it was something to reflect on, of hope and and forward looking, of there is still stuff remaining for me to be done. Naturally. People brought so much food, so much food, and it was a two year old and six month old. I'm the only one eating the food so I didn't cook for so many months. And yeah, I wouldn't even touch anything that people brought as soon as they got it, I just immediately put it in the freezer. The freezer, yeah, yeah. And I lost a lot of weight naturally. People were worried, so they kept bringing me food, so many casseroles, enchiladas. And then one friend came over, and she says, I'm gonna cook in your kitchen. And I says, okay, and she cooks creme brulee, and that was the only thing she made. And I ate it all, every single last bite of it, and it was so delicious, and she sat there and made sure I ate it and and that was really crucial, because one she came and she made it in my house, and she sat and made sure I ate it, and she provided that company of not eating alone like that, in and of itself, is just kind of a weird thing to think about, too that you go from making a meal that multiple people are eating to, or why make a meal, or why even warm something up that somebody brings for you, where people will bring huge guest

33:43

rules for

Dr. Sonya Lutter  33:44

a person, the whole thing is kind of absurd. And her doing that was really nice, having people offer that I could text or call them at any time of the day. And I did. I took them up on that. So at two o'clock when I wasn't sleeping, I had somebody who I knew would answer their phone regardless. And whenever somebody has something really horrible happen to them, I offer that same thing, and sometimes they take me up on it. Sometimes they don't. But for those first several weeks after somebody experiences something, and I offer that to them, I make darn sure that I'm going to hear my phone, because I know how important that is, so I turn it up to full volume all night long, I wear the watch so I can feel a bit of vibration to wake me up. Anything I can do to make sure that I hear the phone, because it's one thing to be there for someone during the day, but the nights are hard when you can't sleep and your mind just goes to weird places, and having that person that you know will answer is really nice. So that's what I do for folks. Also, I. I don't take casseroles. I will take like, bags of candy or cookies or something like sugar is just really hard to resist, and it's something to get people to eat a little something, or even, even if it's little snack food, because no one's gonna sit down and eat a full meal and just making sure that people are eating something the basics. How

Wes Brown  35:26

helpful was it to you for people to ask questions, or was it just better for people to listen and let you offer information or offer needs? Or, you know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Dr. Sonya Lutter  35:40

I hate the questions, because it's not about me, it's about them, and they want something, they want to fill some sort of hole in their life, in their mind, in their heart. And a question is not meant to help the other person in any way, because they already know what the answer is. So I would say any questions were actually very invaluable. And

36:09

yeah, I probably lost,

Dr. Sonya Lutter  36:11

not probably I lost relationships because of that, because people just would not stop answering their questions. And I had had enough like, No, you need to figure your own stuff out, and I'm not going to solve that for you. And so I'd say that's definitely something in all aspects of life, whether or not a person is struggling or not, questions are rarely useful to the person on the receiving end, you can definitely get information about a person. Tell me how you're feeling, tell me what your day has been like, tell me what's exciting for you. Tell me what you're looking forward to, tell me about your dreams. Like there's lots of ways to get information that's targeted towards the person and that's hurting or on the receiving end, and that's one of the things I talk about a lot in financial planning, is people get berated with questions of telling all of the personal details about their life that really is it to help them? Maybe, yes, probably. But yet, there are other ways of getting that information to where it can be more about them, telling a story about them and what's important to them, versus treating them like a subject. You know, another thing that I think is true of everyone who has experienced something big in their life, life altering event in their life is it puts a whole new perspective on life,

37:45

and I can

Dr. Sonya Lutter  37:50

come across as changing paths a lot or maybe feeling a Little bit scattered. I can definitely see that, and yet I feel like my major life altering events that other people have had similar things happen to has been a moment for me to evaluate each and every decision, to see what is the purpose of that decision, and does it provide any meaning for me in my life, and it's a way of really analyzing we're only here for a short period of time, and if I do not see this contributing in a way that I find that aligns with what I see as my purpose in life, then

Wes Brown  38:39

I Don't do it. That's got to be challenging at times.

Dr. Sonya Lutter  38:43

Oh so challenging. Yeah, yeah, this is where that financial security blanket would come in. And yeah, it's faith that things will work out, and things have worked out, and when you live by your truest intentions and your truest purpose and meaning, then the next thing always comes along.

Wes Brown  39:10

So you know, what I love about what you shared is or seems like you really sincerely have extracted meaning from the experience. Meaning it's you're carrying it forward with you in a way that doesn't define you, but it does influence the way you sort of face each day or each moment or each decision. And it reminds me of what Nathan shared that that reflection from his dad, and I'll read it here really quickly. The adversity of life is designed to shape us in a way that prosperity cannot we never choose adversity. It's a divine gift. God allows it to come when and where it can do eternal good. I mean, does that ring true with you? Do you? Seems like it from your story, it

Dr. Sonya Lutter  39:55

absolutely does. And I don't know that there's a day that goes. By that I don't think about

40:01

the event, and

Dr. Sonya Lutter  40:05

definitely not a day that goes by that I don't wonder what will happen with my children. And nobody ever wants their children to face adversity like that's our job to protect them and to give them the very best and to shelter them and put them in a bubble, if we can, and help them only have love and happiness in their life. And when Nathan said that about his dad, I was like, yes, that is absolutely right. Like we do want the very best for our kids and those moments of adversity and challenges is the very thing that's going to protect them as adults.

Wes Brown  40:52

It's the hardest thing to see in the midst of it, though, isn't it?

Dr. Sonya Lutter  40:55

Oh yeah, yeah. It sucks pretty bad, doesn't it, yeah,

40:58

yeah.

Dr. Sonya Lutter  41:00

And there's power in those moments and and for your children, the people you care about, your friends, your spouse, your partner, for them to know that when they do fail, because everyone's gonna fail, that there's somebody there to pick them up. That's it. That's resiliency.

Wes Brown  41:17

I resist sometimes the idea of like in the moment, especially, trying to remind myself that everything works out, you know, that type of like, because that everything happens for a reason, right? That type of thing. And I, and I also fully embrace and believe Nathan's dad's reflection as well. So, so I why? I think that's true. It's often not used, not a useful reminder or useful thing to bring up, you know, in the midst of something, did you did you have anybody do that?

Dr. Sonya Lutter  41:50

Oh my gosh, like every other statement, yeah, yeah. All happens for a reason. It's God's plan or all variations of it were thrown at me. And I think the the real thing is, I want to say the S word happens, and it doesn't happen to me. I'm not special, and it happened to me. It happens to every single person, something, something bad always happens, and today, I could probably come up with a dozen bad things that happened, but it's all about perception. And am I going to let that event define me and dictate what I do next? Or did stuff happen and I move on with my life. And the ability for people to do that is that's part of resiliency too, like learning that you're not special or unique. When bad stuff happens and we can't predict it and we can't maybe there's a reason for it. Maybe there's not a reason for it. I don't know. I'm not even going to debate that part of it, besides that, it happened, and now we got to decide what to do with that information.

Wes Brown  43:08

Yeah, yeah, agreed being able to, I don't know you have, again, the clinical background in, obviously, the personal experience, but it would seem to me, having based on my own experiences and not having handled it well meaning, I dismissed whatever I was feeling about circumstances and moved on and had it resurfaced for me, you know, 12 years later, I couldn't talk about, you know, the experience Because I, you know, without getting really overcome emotionally. My conclusion is that there's real value and power and just processing through it and having the room to process through it, yeah, and in that statement, I guess what I'm getting at is that that redirection that people often offer, of like, reframing, of like, well, everything happens for a reason, or what it's almost like. It almost strikes me as being like aimed at pulling you out of the moment, which, again, is not helpful, is maybe the intention, but it's not really helpful. I don't know. Does that does that sound true to you? Yeah,

Dr. Sonya Lutter  44:17

it does. You know the friend who brought this big basket of just fun things, and the basket, I met up with him recently, and he's been dealing with long covid and like it's massively changed his life, and it's been a year and a half, and for him to be on the other side of the table. Now it was an opportunity for me to put my words into action, and to sit there with him and and to not be like, Oh, it's okay. It's gonna get out of it, or this happened for a reason, but just to sit there and be like, That really sucks, like there's no other way of. Putting it besides for this is a really crappy place right now, and it's a temporary crappiness, and who knows what the future will be. Maybe it'll be worse, maybe it'll be better. We don't know, but all that we know is that this exact point in time is fleeting. The sun will still go down today and it will still come up tomorrow.

45:24

Thanks for sharing that. Welcome. Thanks for

Dr. Sonya Lutter  45:27

asking.

Wes Brown  45:28

Well, you didn't, and I recognize you didn't have to, so I appreciate your vulnerability around

Dr. Sonya Lutter  45:32

that. Yeah, I hope that it's helpful for someone and to know that the best therapist in the world, the best coach, the best religious leader, cannot know what's best for another person. Only you can know what's best for you and what might seem like a crazy idea or crazy decision to somebody else, makes perfect sense for that person in that moment. Yeah.

Wes Brown  46:07

Thank you so much for listening to this special episode of analog advisor. Our hope is that this conversation has provided you with tangible encouragement as you show up for yourself and others in the midst of loss and grief, if you or someone you love struggles with suicidal ideation. May you hear today that your story matters, and we encourage you to reach out for support by contacting the 988, suicide and crisis lifeline you